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08 September 2010 @ 11:53 pm
The LJ/Facebook/Twitter brouhaha  

For those who missed it, LJ has enabled cross-posting posts and replies to Facebook and Twitter, and about 10,000 people have, shall we say, vigorously chimed in with their various privacy concerns:

http://news.livejournal.com/129190.html

As for me, I like the idea of the feature, but I am absolutely opposed to its implementation as it stands right now. So far, no substantial response from LJ except "thanks for your input, we'll get back to you," and that was a week ago.

As a permanent account member, I'm torn - LJ's my home, and I paid for the privilege, but LJ's lack of response is reprehensible, IMHO. I don't really want to move to another service like Dreamwidth, even if I'm still cross-posting here (comments disabled, 'natch). As a perm, though, I really don't have any bargaining position - hell, they'd probably like it if I left, 'cause I'm sucking up bandwidth without being a continuous revenue stream.

So, all that said, I'm curious what other perm members think about this latest development, and what their reaction may or may not be. (And, of course, I ask we keep it civil on either side.)
 
 
Current Mood: curiouscurious
 
 
 
surrey_suckssurrey_sucks on September 9th, 2010 04:31 am (UTC)
poll
I am very worried, and saddened. I don't know what to do. I can't just pack up and go, but I don't feel safe.

In case you haven't seen it, please vote in this poll. I want to see how many people will vote.
No True. Such Permit. Very Assassins. Wow.naamah_darling on September 9th, 2010 04:34 am (UTC)
Re: poll
I voted days ago, and just went over to look at the numbers again, and holy crap, that is amazing. Almost nobody wants this the way it is.
Re: poll - surrey_sucks on September 9th, 2010 04:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - naamah_darling on September 9th, 2010 05:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - surrey_sucks on September 9th, 2010 05:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - sobrique on September 9th, 2010 09:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - sobrique on September 9th, 2010 10:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - love2loveher on September 9th, 2010 10:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - sobrique on September 9th, 2010 10:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - love2loveher on September 9th, 2010 10:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - esprix on September 9th, 2010 01:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: poll - surrey_sucks on September 9th, 2010 04:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - imc on September 9th, 2010 02:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kauricat on September 9th, 2010 02:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fiddlingfrog on September 9th, 2010 03:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - albinowolf on September 10th, 2010 01:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
No True. Such Permit. Very Assassins. Wow.naamah_darling on September 9th, 2010 04:32 am (UTC)
I think the feature is a fine idea, but despise its implementation, and yes, I find the LJ staff's lack of response to be, as you so aptly put it, reprehensible.

I got this permanent account as a gift from a wonderful friend. I don't want to move because LJ is really my base of operations. The whole thing makes me uncomfortable. LJ has been doing nothing but push me further and further and further away with every mistake they make and fail to respond to, and I feel like the proverbial frog in a pot of water.* I know the water is getting hotter, but I just don't feel ready to make the jump to DW, even though I KNOW I should.

It's upsetting.

* I feel compelled to say that I know that is a myth.
Daniel the California Highway Guycahwyguy on September 9th, 2010 04:41 am (UTC)
1. They are probably working on it. It takes time to figure out exactly how to fix it and test it so it doesn't break things further. Give them the rest of the month, at least.

2. So far, I haven't had one Facebook person come over here to comment. I've tried. I think the fears may be overblown -- yes the possibility exists, but in practice I don't think it will be realized that often.

3. As for me, I'm utilitizing the feature to propagate my public posts (although it also seems to propagate posts to communities as well). I have no plans to propagate comments.
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Carolbeunydd on September 9th, 2010 04:42 am (UTC)
Ok...call me naive, but what's the problem? I have a couple of different LJ accounts. This one is my permanent account, and I don't crosspost to Twitter or Facebook with it. I view both of those accounts as totally separate from this, my oldest "social networking" account.

The other account I have is for my author "pseudonym" and I freely crosspost that account to FB, and don't care if everyone and their brother crossposts replies, because the idea of it is self-promotion.

So, if I don't opt to crosspost from this account, what's the problem? I think I live under a rock, thus I don't understand these things.
lauramcewan on September 9th, 2010 04:51 am (UTC)
It's that a commenter on a post of yours, locked or not, can crosspost THEIR comments to their FB, with a link back to your post. Locked, they can't see it, but the context of the comment will in general refer to your original post in some way. Depending on the context and what identifying info may be shared, someone could make it clear that Mary Smith is also marysuelover on LJ, which in some circumstances could have some very serious repercussions.
(no subject) - beunydd on September 9th, 2010 04:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ibneko on September 9th, 2010 07:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tophee on September 9th, 2010 08:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Em: TV // Jordan's X-Rayemploding on September 9th, 2010 04:42 am (UTC)
I won't jump ship, because as you said - they won't care if perm accounts leave, we've paid our money and they aren't getting anything else from us.

I am disturbed by their lack of response. I think the 'we are looking into it' is a cop-out, and they should at least disable the feature until all the fears are addressed.
Esprixesprix on September 9th, 2010 02:03 pm (UTC)
It says to me they have no intention of addressing our concerns and will leave the feature in place unchanged.
yellowhordeyellowhorde on September 9th, 2010 04:47 am (UTC)
I'm here to stay come hell or high water. LJ is my online home and has been for six years now. Sure, I have accounts with Facebook, Twitter and DW, but I don't use them nearly as often as I do this account. Besides, the only posts that are public are my fanfics and I don't care who reads those.
FunBux™ Commissioner: emo gerg is emogerg on September 9th, 2010 04:54 am (UTC)
I legitimately do not understand why there is such a brouhaha over this - the person composing the comment owns the comment and I just don't get why a link to a post appearing elsewhere (when they could already do this) is such a crisis.

That said, I talk to staff all the time as part of what I do with Support. Staff are listening, they're trying to understand everyone's concerns, and they are working on it. I doubt that me saying that will help you any (after all, I'm just some guy), but I can promise you that they at least hear and listen to user feedback and are trying to make the changes that they can to keep everyone happy (e.g., the tab order change).

Believe it or not, LiveJournal's staff don't want all the users to leave, because users are what keep the site running. That said, these sorts of new features do bring in users and do appeal to a certain part of the userbase (several people on my Friends list have been clamoring for ways to crosspost to fb/twitter.)

I can't imagine what you want staff to say beyond "we're trying to decide what to do", because that's what they're doing. Permanent account holders certainly don't "suck up bandwidth"; many of the most prolific posters, who bring other users to the site, are permanent account holders -- the value a PA brings to LiveJournal is in increased goodwill, word-of-mouth, and more users registering to read protected posts or comment on posts in paid/perm journals. IMO.

All of this isn't an 'official' statement from LJ (I can't speak for them,) just my opinion and hope that it helps you reconsider your wanting to leave the site.
Wendy: Glasses on kittysweetmeow on September 9th, 2010 05:27 am (UTC)
You have a point that there always has had to be a certain amount of trust that a journal owner must have in one's f/l and their ethical behavior around one's locked posts Even before this, a person could take their comment and publish it - - anywhere. No one needs to have this feature for this to be done. I've seen friends flip out when finding out stuff from their journal was blabbed or copied elsewhere and that friend would be booted. In a way - it all goes back to trust. However - this SANCTIONS the behavior, and I don't like that.

I also have talked with others about this issue of who DOES want this and there's this theory... I think there are some who have grown up with the internet who don't understand privacy issues like a person my age. (ok - - I've now revealed that I'm an old fuddie duddie... *g*) What I'm trying to say is that they have never had the privacy we had prior to the internet, so they don't value it as pre internet people do. it's just a theory I've heard batted around. Not sure I buy it - totally - but it's out there....

However there *is* overwhelming dislike for this feature. I believe you that LJ is trying to find a solution -- but because of the overwhelming lack of support, would not it be better to remove it - and say that it will return when they find a solution to the issues that have been raised.

I also suspect LJ is trying to figure out how to integrate in the midst of the overwhelming popularity of social media. I've noticed that my own f/l is not as active, and that many have disappeared or lessened their LJ activity for Facebook and Twitter. This may be LJ's way of becoming a part of this.

Good point about Permanent accounts and their value. It's another valid way of looking at it.

I also put my own comment here below.
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(no subject) - theguindo on September 9th, 2010 08:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
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The Water Seekerplymouth on September 9th, 2010 04:59 am (UTC)
Tempest in a teapot. As I said to my friends - I trust them not to use it for evil. Or they wouldn't be my friends.
Monocle Lewinskysaramwrap on September 9th, 2010 10:01 am (UTC)
Yes, this is my approach. I am selective with friending and filters. I don't friend assholes. :)

It's definitely a feature that makes it easier for someone to do evil... but doesn't do anything that couldn't be done by a malicious user who could crosspost much more than a link and their comments.
(no subject) - nakeisha on September 9th, 2010 01:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - plymouth on September 9th, 2010 05:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - plymouth on September 9th, 2010 06:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Aine Silveriaaine_silveria on September 9th, 2010 04:59 am (UTC)
I would have left after the invasion of privacy that was the stupid outboundlink thing (I seriously felt that is was an invasion of my privacy, just like this FB/Twitter thing could be, and my privacy, to me, is of the utmost importance), if it weren't for my permanent account, and also the friends I still have here that will probably never move. I suppose, in the end, if I decide I'm truly fed up, I will still crosspost, and will support DW with a paid account. After all, if DW can manage to figure out how to get the locked LJ entries of my FL into their reading page, like they are trying to manage, I won't have to worry about it anymore.
cindy_reddeer: Autumn - made by mecindy_reddeer on September 9th, 2010 05:50 am (UTC)
if DW can manage to figure out how to get the locked LJ entries of my FL into their reading page,

I actually find this more concerning than the FB/Twitter thing. Can you elaborate on that a bit for me. I have a couple of friends that do DW. Are you saying you would be able to read locked LJ posts on your Friends List via DW? How is that not an invasion of privacy? How do they get past the whole not signed it so can't read locked posts?
(no subject) - aine_silveria on September 9th, 2010 07:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - imc on September 9th, 2010 09:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - aine_silveria on September 9th, 2010 08:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Wendy: catitudesweetmeow on September 9th, 2010 05:00 am (UTC)
If one's posts are public, publicizing them on twitter and facebook - comments included - is probably ok. Other public blogging sites do this -- blogger ... wordpress, etc. (although picking a comment out to post just that is just plain weird - to me) Anything you do that is public on the internet has the potential to BE public in places you do not suspect. All bets are off. Also, those who comment on public posts have to know that they, too, are commenting in public, and must decide how to reveal themselves with that knowledge in mind. I have a public wordpress blog, and I publicize it on facebook as a way of getting it known. I consider it very differently than my LJ journal....

LJ blog is totally friends locked. I do not want my posts, nor comments made to my posts, which might refer to things in that post, made public. I am also sure that many who comment also do not want their comments made public, as they are assuming that it is locked and are commenting with that knowledge i mind. It begs the question -- who owns the comments to people's posts, the author of the comment or the author of the journal? Don't know....

I do not understand why LJ has not responded. Maybe they aren't going to until they find a solution. However, it's my thought that until they do, it would be better to remove it all considering the lack of support for it - then fix it?

I see your point. Why do they care what we, as permanent members think? Who cares if we leave? We have paid our dues, and we are now not part of their revenue stream. Yet - because of this, I don't want to leave. This is my home -- has been since 2001. But -- I am feeling a little bit "out there", although I do have fair amount of trust in my friends list that none would do any of this on my journal, so I keep on keeping on. But -- I have to admit -- an undercurrent of distrust abounds.
Esprix: LiveJournalesprix on September 9th, 2010 02:13 pm (UTC)
Agree with you here 100%.
Danikayla_la on September 9th, 2010 05:15 am (UTC)
I don't really understand why they don't just make it so we can disable people having access to this function when they comment in our LJs. It seems like it would be the best compromise and I find it extremely disrespectful to their userbase that they're dragging their feet.
Edsobrique on September 9th, 2010 09:42 am (UTC)
You can:

It can be done, through modification of your journal style sheet.
This entry goes into a bit more detail.


But basically copy and paste:

/* ---FB-Twitter Comment Ticky Fix--- */
.b-repost-items, .b-repost-item, .b-repost-item IMG, #entry-form-wrapper .b-repost-item, b-repost-item-fb {
display: none;
}

.b-repost-item .repost_disabled {
color: #CCC;
display: none;
}


into:
http://www.livejournal.com/customize/options.bml?group=customcss


(Well, works for disabling comments in _your_ style at least)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Mizumizufae on September 9th, 2010 05:18 am (UTC)
I'm quite pissed off about this and I feel like, as a perm member, I have absolutely no bargaining chips. I made a DW and have moved over there, but I'm still checking my flist here and still using Scrapbook. Scrapbook, actually, is the only thing I want that DW doesn't have. I barely use LJ anymore for anything actually journal related.

I'm mostly concerned about my lj friends who have legitimate concerns about stalkers via FB, and people who post their own creative works on LJ who may get linked to on FB and FB's extremely evil privacy policies and Disney-esque IP agreement coming over and affecting people on LJ. I worry about my fandom involvement, and an influx of facebook users and the inevitable culture clash between these two mindsets. Mostly it's the stalkers, though. I suspect that once enough BNFs have altercations with facebook trolls, fandom is going to shift off-site more and more.

As a permanent member I've grown accustomed to a lot of perks that I don't actually use. My move to DW has pointed this out to me. I kind of feel like, why did I get that perm account in the first place? I suppose a few years ago, I used those perks. But since then, I've changed and LJ has changed. If I had a way to retroactively get my money back, I would.
Laitaine: dance - waltz overawaylauralaitaine on September 9th, 2010 05:30 am (UTC)
I have a DW account and I love it, I much prefer it there than at LJ and would move there permanently if only my friends and comms would move with me. At first, the fact that I have a perm account here was a factor in my reluctance to completely abandon ship, but now it just the friends and comms I have here. I enjoyed my perm account for a while, before LJ started being completely crap, and I have had it for a few years now. It might not have actually paid for itself (I don't remember how many years of paid time you could buy with the permanent account amount) but I've definitely had my money's worth. And I'd leave it behind for greater peace of mind about my privacy.

I currently cross post from DW and allow comments in either place, I'm considering restricting comments to DW only in light of this LJfail, though most of my friends comment on LJ and I don't want to discourage them. Decisions, decisions.
Esprix: sighesprix on September 9th, 2010 02:17 pm (UTC)
The replying is definitely an issue. Right now I cross-post my public entries to Facebook, and it's nice to get feedback there and here. Moving to DW, I'd likely do the same, only it would only be with public posts. Alas, only a slim number of my friends have DW accounts, so I think I'm going to stick with LJ a while longer, but think long and hard should their eventual response not be what I'm hoping for.
oh gallant piglet,aizome on September 9th, 2010 05:31 am (UTC)
I've moved everything to DW except my custom style sheet, which I was thinking of changing anyway. Many of my friends moved there last week as well. I cross-post entries from there to LJ (comments disabled unless you go to DW), and check my flist to keep up with friends who haven't left, and communities.

More than a week has passed, the response from the userbase has been more negative than I've ever seen it, and we've still heard next to nothing from the staff? Even the strikethrough mess had more communication from their end. I can only conclude one thing from silence like that, and it isn't positive.

I was very angry a week ago, but now I'm just tired. And sad.
Esprix: sighesprix on September 9th, 2010 02:19 pm (UTC)
As you say, given the HUGE negative response (has anything else gotten as big of a blowback other than the strikeout?), the silence is striking at this point - it tells me they're not going to address anyone's concerns and the feature will not be changed at all. And that sucks.
(no subject) - kayla_la on September 9th, 2010 05:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 05:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kayla_la on September 9th, 2010 05:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 05:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kayla_la on September 9th, 2010 05:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 06:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - esprix on September 9th, 2010 06:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
im nicer when im drunk!evilshelly on September 9th, 2010 05:49 am (UTC)
I'm not going to jump ship; I *can't*, I have a PERMANENT account. :) No way am I giving that up. I just hope I don't lose all my favorite communities in this latest, great exodus.

I just really wish the whole cross-posting ON OTHER PEOPLES JOURNALS didn't exist. It's awful! I don't want my facebook people to even KNOW livejournal *exists*, let alone know I have an account on livejournal.

This is my FANDOM place. My personal place.

fuck these ticky cross post boxes!

Esprix: Fucked up!esprix on September 9th, 2010 02:19 pm (UTC)
Well put! :)